Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

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Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Andreas Thulin-2
Hi all!

Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.

Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)

I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.

Cheers,
Andreas
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Christoph R. Murauer
Hello !

No need for flame or complain or something.

What I can remember, there is a German wiki at http://wiki.bsdforen.de
and posts at http://bsdnow.tv booth are not up to date. And, what you
find using your prefered search engine. But OpenBSD only - extreme
seldom.

If it is useful for YOU and, YOU want it - do it.

IMHO I would start it, provide maybe here a table of contents if you
didn't start already something and, I would call for / handle that off
list.

Regards,

Christoph



> Hi all!
>
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
> make
> updates easier.
>
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to
> what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to
> start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not
> sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
>
> I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no
> one is
> asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
> contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Lea Chescotta
Hi Andreas! Personally I really like the idea, i used Arch Linux for
several years and i always liked way the Arch Wiki was always updated
and containing a lot of useful data, that (i know) it's always
available in the manual pages with a lot of more useful data,
but i think it's useful to have like a brief description and usage of
the system and tools that one can then complement with the manual
pages if needed.

I writed a lot of small text files that i use for different tasks,
from video conversion and edition with ffmpeg, to system administration
of different operating systems, including OpenBSD that is the system
Im using in my personal computer for the last couple of months and that
I really love.

If you want i can share with you the text files relevant to the
installation and usage of OpenBSD that i had for personal use for you
to see if something in them is suitable for your endeavour, they cover
installation and updating processes, mainly for the stable branch that
I installed and maintain in my computer, even the installation in an
full encrypted disk, and basic setup of the environment and tools usage.

Thanks for the initiative!





>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
>Local Time: January 4, 2018 11:50 AM
>UTC Time: January 4, 2018 2:50 PM
>From: [hidden email]
>To: Andreas Thulin <[hidden email]>
>[hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>
>Hello !
>
>No need for flame or complain or something.
>
>What I can remember, there is a German wiki at http://wiki.bsdforen.de
>and posts at http://bsdnow.tv booth are not up to date. And, what you
>find using your prefered search engine. But OpenBSD only - extreme
>seldom.
>
>If it is useful for YOU and, YOU want it - do it.
>
>IMHO I would start it, provide maybe here a table of contents if you
>didn't start already something and, I would call for / handle that off
>list.
>
>Regards,
>
>Christoph
>
>
>
>>Hi all!
>>Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
>>non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
>>non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
>>existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
>>make
>>updates easier.
>>Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to
>>what
>>I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to
>>start
>>suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not
>>sure
>>they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
>>I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no
>>one is
>>asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
>>contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
>>Cheers,
>>Andreas
>>
>

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Edgar Pettijohn III-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2

On Jan 4, 2018 9:27 AM, Lea Chescotta <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Andreas! Personally I really like the idea, i used Arch Linux for
> several years and i always liked way the Arch Wiki was always updated
> and containing a lot of useful data, that (i know) it's always
> available in the manual pages with a lot of more useful data,
> but i think it's useful to have like a brief description and usage of
> the system and tools that one can then complement with the manual
> pages if needed.
>
> I writed a lot of small text files that i use for different tasks,
> from video conversion and edition with ffmpeg, to system administration
> of different operating systems, including OpenBSD that is the system
> Im using in my personal computer for the last couple of months and that
> I really love.
>
> If you want i can share with you the text files relevant to the
> installation and usage of OpenBSD that i had for personal use for you
> to see if something in them is suitable for your endeavour, they cover
> installation and updating processes, mainly for the stable branch that
> I installed and maintain in my computer, even the installation in an
> full encrypted disk, and basic setup of the environment and tools usage.
>
> Thanks for the initiative!
>
> ​
>
> ​
>
> >-------- Original Message --------
> >Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
> >Local Time: January 4, 2018 11:50 AM
> >UTC Time: January 4, 2018 2:50 PM
> >From: [hidden email]
> >To: Andreas Thulin <[hidden email]>
> >[hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> >
> >Hello !
> >
> >No need for flame or complain or something.
> >
> >What I can remember, there is a German wiki at http://wiki.bsdforen.de
> >and posts at http://bsdnow.tv booth are not up to date. And, what you
> >find using your prefered search engine. But OpenBSD only - extreme
> >seldom.
> >
> >If it is useful for YOU and, YOU want it - do it.
> >
> >IMHO I would start it, provide maybe here a table of contents if you
> >didn't start already something and, I would call for / handle that off
> >list.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Christoph
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi all!
> >>Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> >>non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> >>non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> >>existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
> >>make
> >>updates easier.
> >>Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to
> >>what
> >>I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to
> >>start
> >>suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not
> >>sure
> >>they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
> >>I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no
> >>one is
> >>asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
> >>contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
> >>Cheers,
> >>Andreas
> >>
> >
>


I feel that the FAQ section covers 90% of use cases fairly well. I would recommend focusing on the more in depth issues that aren't. However I do like the idea.
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Marko Cupać
In reply to this post by Lea Chescotta
Feel free to contribute to [!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!]

[https://www.mimar.rs/blog/tag:openbsd]

As a side note, setting up apache and grav [https://getgrav.org/] took
me an hour or so. Writing simple article takes whole day, sometimes
much more.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Bryan Harris
My preference is to purchase a book. I have had a good experience with
Absolute OpenBSD, Httpd & Relayd, the tarsnap book, and the Book of PF.

I would buy a book about OpenSMTPD and also ikev2 but I didn't see any.

Just my $0.02, I like books better than online tutorials.

V/r,
Bryan

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Marko Cupać <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Feel free to contribute to [!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!]
>
> [https://www.mimar.rs/blog/tag:openbsd]
>
> As a side note, setting up apache and grav [https://getgrav.org/] took
> me an hour or so. Writing simple article takes whole day, sometimes
> much more.
> --
> Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
> After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
>
> Marko Cupać
> https://www.mimar.rs/
>
>
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Marko Cupać
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:41:19 -0500
Bryan Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My preference is to purchase a book. I have had a good experience with
> Absolute OpenBSD, Httpd & Relayd, the tarsnap book, and the Book of
> PF.
>
> I would buy a book about OpenSMTPD and also ikev2 but I didn't see
> any.
>
> Just my $0.02, I like books better than online tutorials.

Couldn't agree more. Those are good books.

However, back in a day when I was completely fresh to OpenBSD, I
preferred to copy/paste someone's working solution, and then discover
which config line does what, how, and why. That's because I had no
clue about anything. It was valuable to read how people designed
solutions to their needs, what combination of software they used etc.
Only at the later stage I was able to dive into documentation.

I was particularly fond of this set of howtos:
http://www.kernel-panic.it/openbsd.html
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Oliver Marugg
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
Hi

In general an community driven openbsd wiki would be a good idea, for
users like me (not developers). I would participate as far I am able to.
But do not forget the OpenBSD FAQ and man pages are really well
documented (thanks devs).
-oliver

On 4 Jan 2018, at 15:17, Andreas Thulin wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
> make
> updates easier.
>
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to
> what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to
> start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not
> sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
>
> I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no
> one is
> asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
> contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Base Pr1me
In reply to this post by Marko Cupać
The Pledge of the Network Admin, from one of those book authors:
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-will-not-mindlessly-paste-from-howtos.html
:D

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Marko Cupać <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:41:19 -0500
> Bryan Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > My preference is to purchase a book. I have had a good experience with
> > Absolute OpenBSD, Httpd & Relayd, the tarsnap book, and the Book of
> > PF.
> >
> > I would buy a book about OpenSMTPD and also ikev2 but I didn't see
> > any.
> >
> > Just my $0.02, I like books better than online tutorials.
>
> Couldn't agree more. Those are good books.
>
> However, back in a day when I was completely fresh to OpenBSD, I
> preferred to copy/paste someone's working solution, and then discover
> which config line does what, how, and why. That's because I had no
> clue about anything. It was valuable to read how people designed
> solutions to their needs, what combination of software they used etc.
> Only at the later stage I was able to dive into documentation.
>
> I was particularly fond of this set of howtos:
> http://www.kernel-panic.it/openbsd.html
> --
> Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
> After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
>
> Marko Cupać
> https://www.mimar.rs/
>
>
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Marko Cupać
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:13:58 -0700
Base Pr1me <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Pledge of the Network Admin, from one of those book authors:
> http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-will-not-mindlessly-paste-from-howtos.html
> :D

I found this pledge quite early, and it instantly became my pledge as
well. But I think the significant word here is "mindlessly". Pasting
from howtos is not bad per se, in my opinion, as long as you gradually
get to understand what you pasted.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Marcus MERIGHI
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
[hidden email] (Andreas Thulin), 2018.01.04 (Thu) 15:17 (CET):
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially

> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
> make updates easier.  

You don't know you are standing on an ancient battle ground :-)

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=141611711607893
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&w=2&r=3&s=calomel

I dare to forecast the answer:
If there's a lack of documentation, improve it in-place, send patches.

Do not expect anyone to be grateful if you put information out on the
web and misc@ gets the spam because your four year old examples do not
work anymore.

Marcus

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Chris Bennett-4
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
On Thu, Jan 04, 2018 at 02:17:51PM +0000, Andreas Thulin wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
> updates easier.
>
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
>
> I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
> asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
> contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas

Your idea, at first glance, sounds like a wonderful thing. Genuinely.

But before you get your hopes up, go check out the various worldwide
community groups websites with similar attempts.

Mexico, Russia, etc.
You will find the same thing. Instructions for something to do with 5.7, all
of which is no longer applicable do to the constant change in OpenBSD.

Writing articles is not too difficult. Updating them, just doesn't happen.
Seriously, will I really want to spend the time updating an article about
something I now thoroughly understand and which has changed? Or would I
really just prefer to watch the latest movie that looks good? It's just human
nature.

If you really want to see something kept up to date, it really needs to be
within the tree of the system. As changes happen (or happened a long time ago)
the manual pages don't always reflect reality well. I would put some effort
into that. If you see something in a manual page that is just beyond you, ask
about that and see if you can write a diff to make things more clear. I find
that some manual pages would be really more helpful with just one or two
examples added. Trust me, there are many manual pages with flaws. You are
naturally going to read every manual page for all of the commands within
/bin and /sbin, right?

Trying to form a community project outside just doesn't seem to work, sadly.

But if you've got the desire to do something, then have at it. Just don't do
a ton of hard work only to be disappointed.

Have fun,
Chris Bennett


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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Daniel Ouellet
In reply to this post by Marcus MERIGHI
On 1/4/18 11:46 AM, Marcus MERIGHI wrote:
> [hidden email] (Andreas Thulin), 2018.01.04 (Thu) 15:17 (CET):
>> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
>
>> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
>> make updates easier.  
>
> You don't know you are standing on an ancient battle ground :-)
>
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=141611711607893

This is NOT officially bless and it is old as the site say this is for
the community to do it, but I did that in 2004 after I was fed up with
all these comments that it should be done.

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=110029083800034&w=2

I thought to delete it for many years now but that was an exercise in
shut up and hack mentality.

Only 2 person step in 15 years to do anything and they did it may be 3
or 4 times.

The site is total SHIT!!!

But it is there is show how useless all these comments are as talks is
cheap, but doing the work, not so much.

> I dare to forecast the answer:
> If there's a lack of documentation, improve it in-place, send patches.

Obviously that wasn't a wiki, 15 years is a long time but it's proven
the point everyone talks and no one does the work.

> Do not expect anyone to be grateful if you put information out on the
> web and misc@ gets the spam because your four year old examples do not
> work anymore.

Amen. misc@ get a lots of crap and frankly I must admit the devs have a
very think skin to take all the sad comments you see on it.

I thought many times to delete the site, just kept it for the joke if it
I guess.

But if anyone was actually serious and I really don;t think anyone is
yet after 15 years then it could be changed.

I would be more then happy to redo it and host it like this at Equinix
in Ashburn Virginia where I have over 125 network peering connections so
connectivity is not the issue, doing the work is.

If anyone comes with a decent setup that work, I would be more then
happy to find it a home and even give some restricted shell access to
that person/persons if that's actually serious.

But experience has proven it time and time again when the subject come
up, it will die soon.

Going back under my rock...

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Thuban-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)

yes, see here : https://wiki.obsd4a.net/doku.php

It's mainly in french, but I don't know what is your favourite language.

regards
--
thuban

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Marko Cupać
On 01/04/18 10:38, Marko Cupać wrote:
> Feel free to contribute to [!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!]
>
> [https://www.mimar.rs/blog/tag:openbsd]
>
> As a side note, setting up apache and grav [https://getgrav.org/] took
> me an hour or so. Writing simple article takes whole day, sometimes
> much more.

bingo.

I love wikis for internal documentation.  But the magic is not setting
up the wiki (or anything else for documenting), it's MAINTAINING it and
getting others to participate.

Sadly, as is proven almost daily on this list, even though it is trivial
to put crap on a website, people seem to get this idea that if it is
"found on the web, it must be true!".  People don't trust google with
their personal data, but if it shows up in a google search, it must be
"vetted" some how!  It must be good!  No.  Of course not.  And yet ...

As has been demonstrated in comments on this thread and in practice,
people tend to write stuff, toss it out on the 'net, and forget about
it.  This is a problem.  For something like Wikipedia, facts don't
usually change as much as they do get added to.  For an OS, things
actually change.  What is written today and is correct becomes WRONG
next week.  So everything out there has to be periodically scrubbed for
accuracy.  And that creates a problem -- what if the maintainers don't
actually know everything about everything, and the original author
wanders off and isn't responsive?  The obvious answer is delete the old
article ... but what if you don't even know if it needs update?  (maybe
the answer is auto-removing every document that is not updated once a year)

Could it work?  Yes.  But not because of a discussion on misc@, but
because of a lot of people choose to make it happen.

And then, there's the problem of getting groups of people to agree on
things.  For example, I looked at the first article on the mimar blog
here, and I disagree with the basic structure.  Too much duplication of
installation instructions, too much "do this", too little "here's why
I'm doing this".  There's some really great things in there, like the -P
command to populate the MFS file systems, without even commenting about
that nifty command people might not know about.  And then you have a
bunch of echos used to create a script.  boo.  Just provide the script
and say "copy/paste this into your editor", or better, "here's how I did
it", and assume if someone needs to be told to copy/paste into their
editor, they shouldn't.  Don't obscure the actual details with "echo ...
>>file" crap.  Now, if I'm on the administration team, do you 1) think
I'm an idiot and storm off?  2) make the changes I suggest and decide
this isn't fun and then wander off?  3) decide I'm brilliant and start
writing the "Nick Way"?  (hint: it won't be #3.  In this case,
hopefully, it would be #4: kick me off the administration team, since
it's YOUR server, not mine! :) )

Bonus points for actually doing it, though.

Nick.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

andrew fabbro
In reply to this post by Chris Bennett-4
On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Chris Bennett <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> But before you get your hopes up, go check out the various worldwide
> community groups websites with similar attempts.
>
> Mexico, Russia, etc.
> You will find the same thing. Instructions for something to do with 5.7,
> all
> of which is no longer applicable do to the constant change in OpenBSD.
>

We should wait until OpenBSD is completely done before tutorials are
written :-)  Kidding...

The OpenBSD community has historically taken a different approach than That
Other Open Source OS Family, frowning on tutorials, wikis, blog howtos,
etc. in favor of saying "read the man pages, read the FAQ, read the source
code".  I suspect some of this comes from the incredible craftsmanship put
into those resources.  OpenBSD man pages are the best in the world, and I'd
defend them even against commercial Unixes.  They're the Sistine Chapel
ceiling of man pages.

So then to turn around and see howtos written by non-devs...it's kind of
like a chess book by a GM versus one by a 1100 player.  No one objects to
Michael Lucas's book because he's a fine writer.

Writing articles is not too difficult. Updating them, just doesn't happen.
> Seriously, will I really want to spend the time updating an article about
> something I now thoroughly understand and which has changed? Or would I
> really just prefer to watch the latest movie that looks good? It's just
> human
> nature.
>

The situation is rather different for OpenBSD vs. other FOSS.  Plenty of
people are still running Debian 7 or CentOS 5.  Those tutorials have
enduring value.  Relatively few people run OpenBSD from three or four
versions back (or at least, they shouldn't).  Debian 7 or Scientific Linux
6 or whatever is a branch with ongoing support and intended to be a lasting
product, whereas OpenBSD is always a moving target.  There are no "OpenBSD
LTS" versions.

So while I might legitimately consume a 5-year-old Linux tutorial and find
it's still very applicable if you're still on Debian 7, deploying, reading
and trying to use a 5-year-old OpenBSD tutorial would not be helpful.

Trying to form a community project outside just doesn't seem to work, sadly.
>
> But if you've got the desire to do something, then have at it. Just don't
> do
> a ton of hard work only to be disappointed.
>

I do think there's a gap between man pages/source code and practical
instructions on how to fix a problem or deploy a solution.  But the problem
you highlight is very real - things get out of date very fast.

Ultimately, this is like the thread recently on using something other than
CVS.  The onus is on the proposer to demonstrate value.

--
andrew fabbro
[hidden email]
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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Peter N. M. Hansteen
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
On 01/04/18 15:17, Andreas Thulin wrote:

> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
> updates easier.
>
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)

There have been several similar efforts, but unfortunately in almost all
of these cases apparently life has happened to the people involved and
maintenance stopped.

The main barrier here is not the choice of tools (although I must admit
that for a certain project requiring people to get the DSSSL toolchain
up in order to be able to hand over validated DocBook SGML may have been
setting a high-ish bar) or even how much you know about the subject at
hand when you start out. There are examples of good tech books that
started out as lab notes while learning a subject, for example.

If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.

That said, as others have pointed out already, articles, tutorials and
such can be very useful and making these materials I think should be
encouraged. Putting together material to share about a subject you care
about is great fun even if it takes som effort, and with a bit of luck
what you produce will be useful to others.

However, if you want the material to *stay* useful you will need to
commit time and effort to *maintain* it so it stays up to date and
relevant.

There are too many cases out there where some abandoned document is so
out of date that it's actively harmful or at least very confusing to a
newcomer. In these cases it would have been a lot more useful if the
material was simply deleted.

--
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Allan Streib-2
In reply to this post by andrew fabbro
andrew fabbro <[hidden email]> writes:

> read the man pages, read the FAQ, read the source code

I have to say that I've found that in most cases the man pages and FAQ
will get you a long way. If you're a new arrival from the linux world,
used to googling for how-to blog posts, this will not be expected or
habitual. Try it, and you might be surprised.

Allan

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Ve Telko
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
Hi Andreas,

I installed OpenBSD on Oct. 16. 2017 after 18 years in Linux motivated by 
reading an article from Derek Sivers on OpenBSD 6.1/6.2

I started with reading FAQ and mailing lists (mostly tech and misc) history.
I also searched for some other articles on OpenBSD but I very soon 
understood, that there are very few and that this is absolutely another 
world, than Linux.

Now after several weeks I use Google only occasionally, I stopped using 
stackoverflow et. al. I'm just reading FAQ, man pages, dotfiles and gists
on Github and if I need to ask for help I ask people in OpenBSD Jumpstart 
group in Telegram or people on Twitter. They are very friendly
and willing to help with anything.

Don't spend your time or energy on something like Arch Linux wiki.

Ve.

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Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?

Rodrigo Mosconi
In reply to this post by Andreas Thulin-2
2018-01-04 12:17 GMT-02:00 Andreas Thulin <[hidden email]>:

> Hi all!
>
> Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
> non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
> non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
> existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
> updates easier.
>
> Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
> I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
> suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
> they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
>
> I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
> asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
> contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>


OpenBSD already has a good faq, manpages and books.
Both the FAQ and manpages receives updates, even for non-developers as
patchs.
I remember that an list member provided an faq update because a change on
ifconfig.

IMHO, I think that there is no need for an wiki.  Just improve the FAQ
(that is plain
HTML!!!, no some sort of 'custom markdown'). Just send a patch.

Also the manpages are great, yesterday I used ypldap.conf(5) to setup a lab
to try to
make openbsd as a FreeIPA client (no flame war, please).  In fact, I only
used the
manpages for YP .  But I need info pages, pkg-readme, and some old article
of
kerberos from bsdmagazine to setup the kerberos part (that is not in base
anymore).

Some weeks ago, I used the manpages to setup an two-factor auth (ssh-key +
password).
On the same day, I used another manpage and pkg_readme to setup TOTP
passwords.
And on the login.conf(5) you can find how to use OTP+password to ssh in,
OTP to sudo and
password only to change own password (yes, it's an crazy setup, but I
learned how to do it)

Not OpenBSD related, but I learned a lot of perl just by using the tutorial
manpages, and I
still use some perl*tut to resolve some doubt.  At that time I was using
FreeBSD, and there
docs (handbook) are also a good source of information.  The chapter of BIND
DNS is very
good for a newbie sysadmin.

As I said, there is no need to create an wiki.  We, the users
non-developers, need to submit
the missing parts from the faq or manpages or some configuration to put in
/etc/examples.


Att,
Mosconi
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