H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

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H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox, claiming  
lack of H.264 codec support.

Googling around, found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264

But none of the packages are currently available:

[root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf config-manager --set-enabled fedora-cisco-openh264
[root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf install gstreamer1-plugin-openh264 mozilla-openh264
Last metadata expiration check: 0:00:00 ago on Thu 26 Apr 2018 09:40:47 PM  
EDT.
No match for argument: gstreamer1-plugin-openh264
No match for argument: mozilla-openh264
Error: Unable to find a match

Meanwhile, back on Fedora 27, H.264 video works fine in Firefox, without any  
of this.



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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

stan-3
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:41:46 -0400
Sam Varshavchik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox,
> claiming lack of H.264 codec support.
>
> Googling around, found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264
>
> But none of the packages are currently available:
>
> [root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf config-manager --set-enabled
> fedora-cisco-openh264 [root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf install
> gstreamer1-plugin-openh264 mozilla-openh264 Last metadata expiration
> check: 0:00:00 ago on Thu 26 Apr 2018 09:40:47 PM EDT.
> No match for argument: gstreamer1-plugin-openh264
> No match for argument: mozilla-openh264
> Error: Unable to find a match
>
> Meanwhile, back on Fedora 27, H.264 video works fine in Firefox,
> without any of this.

I'm running F28 and haven't had any problem playing videos for the weeks
I have been. I just went to youtube and had no problem watching a video
with both the Fedora firefox and nightly. Is there a specific way to
make sure that a video is H264 (mp4) instead of webm (most of youtube)?
Can you maybe point me to a video that has the problem so I can try
playing it?

It appears there might be something in your configuration causing a
problem.
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Todd Zullinger
In reply to this post by Sam Varshavchik
Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox, claiming
> lack of H.264 codec support.
>
> Googling around, found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264

I think that H.264 implementation is somewhat limited (and
stale, in addition to not having anything in the f28 repo),
based on some comments in #fedora IRC.

For Firefox, ffmpeg-libs and compat-ffmpeg28 were what I
needed in f28.  At the moment, the compat-ffmpeg28 package
is still in the rpmfusion-free-rawhide repo though, so you
have to do a little juggling to install things.  Here's what
I did in a test VM just now:

$ sudo dnf install ffmpeg-libs
$ sudo dnf install rpmfusion-free-release-rawhide
$ sudo dnf --enablerepo rpmfusion-free-rawhide install compat-ffmpeg28

I didn't do this all in one step as installing ffmpeg-libs
with rpmfusion-free-rawhide enabled would pull in a number
of f29 packages that are better to avoid.

Hopefully this will be cleared up by the rpmfusion folks in
the next few days, before F28 is released.  If it hasn't
been reported to them, it would be great if someone can do
that.

--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You can't make something idiot proof, idiots are too damned creative.


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
In reply to this post by stan-3
stan writes:

> On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:41:46 -0400
> Sam Varshavchik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox,
> > claiming lack of H.264 codec support.
> >
> > Googling around, found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264
> >
> > But none of the packages are currently available:
> >
> > [root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf config-manager --set-enabled
> > fedora-cisco-openh264 [root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf install
> > gstreamer1-plugin-openh264 mozilla-openh264 Last metadata expiration
> > check: 0:00:00 ago on Thu 26 Apr 2018 09:40:47 PM EDT.
> > No match for argument: gstreamer1-plugin-openh264
> > No match for argument: mozilla-openh264
> > Error: Unable to find a match
> >
> > Meanwhile, back on Fedora 27, H.264 video works fine in Firefox,
> > without any of this.
>
> I'm running F28 and haven't had any problem playing videos for the weeks
> I have been. I just went to youtube and had no problem watching a video
> with both the Fedora firefox and nightly. Is there a specific way to
> make sure that a video is H264 (mp4) instead of webm (most of youtube)?
> Can you maybe point me to a video that has the problem so I can try
> playing it?
If you go to https://www.youtube.com/html5 does it tell you that your  
browser has H.264 support?

Fedora 27 Firefox does. Fedora 28 Firefox does not.


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

stan-3
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:38:16 -0400
Sam Varshavchik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If you go to https://www.youtube.com/html5 does it tell you that
> your browser has H.264 support?
>
> Fedora 27 Firefox does. Fedora 28 Firefox does not.

Yes, it does.  I thought of a reason why this might be true.  I had
been running a version of rawhide that was updated for many releases,
and decided to stop at F28.  I probably carried over into F28 from those
earlier releases whatever is causing your problem, especially if yours
was a new install.

To Todd's point, I noticed in my updates today that rpmfusion had ffmpeg
updates, so that might solve your problem.
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
In reply to this post by Todd Zullinger
Todd Zullinger writes:

> Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> > After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox,  
> claiming
> > lack of H.264 codec support.
> >
> > Googling around, found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264
>
> I think that H.264 implementation is somewhat limited (and
> stale, in addition to not having anything in the f28 repo),
> based on some comments in #fedora IRC.
Yeah, but without it, the first video I hit on Youtube after upgrading to  
F28 wouldn't play, and barked at me for lacking H.264 support. The video was  
2 hours old when I tried it. I now went back to it, some time later, and it  
played that time. So, Youtube is transcoding content to webm, apparently,  
but new content won't play until that happens.

I really have to get this working, before I upgrade Mrs. Sam's laptop to  
F28, or I'll catch hell for it. She watches Youtube a lot.

> For Firefox, ffmpeg-libs and compat-ffmpeg28 were what I
> needed in f28.  At the moment, the compat-ffmpeg28 package
> is still in the rpmfusion-free-rawhide repo though, so you
> have to do a little juggling to install things.  Here's what
> I did in a test VM just now:
>
> $ sudo dnf install ffmpeg-libs
> $ sudo dnf install rpmfusion-free-release-rawhide
> $ sudo dnf --enablerepo rpmfusion-free-rawhide install compat-ffmpeg28

Yeah, I also Googled up a reference to compat-ffmpeg28:

https://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?317721

But that one didn't say anything about rpmfusion-free-rawhide. I had  
everything except compat-ffmpeg28 already inherited from F27, where  
everything worked. That link didn't pan out because, as you say, compat-
ffmpeg28 is not in the main rpmfusion repo.

Installing it now, from rawhide, finally results in a clean bill of health  
from https://www.youtube.com/html5

> Hopefully this will be cleared up by the rpmfusion folks in
> the next few days, before F28 is released.  If it hasn't
> been reported to them, it would be great if someone can do
> that.

Did a quick search of their Bugzilla. Didn't find anything. Created a bug  
against compat-ffmpeg28, seemed the best candidate for the bug, since it's  
that package that needs to be moved out of rawhide.

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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Samuel Sieb
In reply to this post by Sam Varshavchik
On 04/26/2018 06:41 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:

> After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox,
> claiming lack of H.264 codec support.
>
> Googling around, found this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264
>
> But none of the packages are currently available:
>
> [root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf config-manager --set-enabled
> fedora-cisco-openh264
> [root@thinkpad yum.repos.d]# dnf install gstreamer1-plugin-openh264
> mozilla-openh264
> Last metadata expiration check: 0:00:00 ago on Thu 26 Apr 2018 09:40:47
> PM EDT.
> No match for argument: gstreamer1-plugin-openh264
> No match for argument: mozilla-openh264
> Error: Unable to find a match

If you enter "about:addons", then click on the "plugins" section, there
is probably a disabled openh264 plugin.  Try enabling it.  Do you have
the gstreamer plugins from rpmfusion installed?  On F27, I have h264
support without openh264, so I wonder what provides it there.
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
In reply to this post by stan-3
stan writes:

> On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:38:16 -0400
> Sam Varshavchik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > If you go to https://www.youtube.com/html5 does it tell you that
> > your browser has H.264 support?
> >
> > Fedora 27 Firefox does. Fedora 28 Firefox does not.
>
> Yes, it does.  I thought of a reason why this might be true.  I had
> been running a version of rawhide that was updated for many releases,
> and decided to stop at F28.  I probably carried over into F28 from those
> earlier releases whatever is causing your problem, especially if yours
> was a new install.
When you say rawhide, are you referring to Fedora rawhide, or rpmfusion  
rawhide.

>
> To Todd's point, I noticed in my updates today that rpmfusion had ffmpeg
> updates, so that might solve your problem.

Yes, that seems to be one way to get there.

I already had rpmfusion, and this us where I had full HTML5 support from,  
including H.264, up to F27. But I did not have rpmfusion-rawhide enabled,  
and I lost H.264 after updating to F28.

If you say that you were only on Fedora rawhide, but not rpmfusion rawhide,  
and you still have H.264 without compat-ffmpeg28 from rpmfusion rawhide, it  
would be useful to compare notes, to figure out where you're getting H.264  
from, in F28.


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Samuel Sieb
In reply to this post by Samuel Sieb
On 04/26/2018 08:23 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> If you enter "about:addons", then click on the "plugins" section, there
> is probably a disabled openh264 plugin.  Try enabling it.  Do you have
> the gstreamer plugins from rpmfusion installed?  On F27, I have h264
> support without openh264, so I wonder what provides it there.

Sorry, I don't know why I replied without reading the rest of the thread...
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

stan-3
In reply to this post by Sam Varshavchik
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:23:28 -0400
Sam Varshavchik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > To Todd's point, I noticed in my updates today that rpmfusion had
> > ffmpeg updates, so that might solve your problem.  
>
> Yes, that seems to be one way to get there.
>
> I already had rpmfusion, and this us where I had full HTML5 support
> from, including H.264, up to F27. But I did not have
> rpmfusion-rawhide enabled, and I lost H.264 after updating to F28.
>
> If you say that you were only on Fedora rawhide, but not rpmfusion
> rawhide, and you still have H.264 without compat-ffmpeg28 from
> rpmfusion rawhide, it would be useful to compare notes, to figure out
> where you're getting H.264 from, in F28.
>
No, I have
Name        : compat-ffmpeg28
Version     : 2.8.14
Release     : 1.fc28
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: Thu 15 Mar 2018 03:05:26 PM MST

installed.  And I've had rpmfusion-rawhide enabled the whole time, so
that is probably why it is working.  I don't have the cisco repo
enabled, though.

These,
rpmfusion-free-release-28-1.noarch
rpmfusion-nonfree-release-28-1.noarch
installed today, so rpmfusion now has an F28 repository.  You should be
able to install the compat-ffmpeg28 from there.
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Todd Zullinger
stan wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:23:28 -0400
> Sam Varshavchik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> To Todd's point, I noticed in my updates today that rpmfusion had
>>> ffmpeg updates, so that might solve your problem.  
>>
>> Yes, that seems to be one way to get there.
>>
>> I already had rpmfusion, and this us where I had full HTML5 support
>> from, including H.264, up to F27. But I did not have
>> rpmfusion-rawhide enabled, and I lost H.264 after updating to F28.
>>
>> If you say that you were only on Fedora rawhide, but not rpmfusion
>> rawhide, and you still have H.264 without compat-ffmpeg28 from
>> rpmfusion rawhide, it would be useful to compare notes, to figure out
>> where you're getting H.264 from, in F28.
>>
> No, I have
> Name        : compat-ffmpeg28
> Version     : 2.8.14
> Release     : 1.fc28
> Architecture: x86_64
> Install Date: Thu 15 Mar 2018 03:05:26 PM MST
>
> installed.  And I've had rpmfusion-rawhide enabled the whole time, so
> that is probably why it is working.  I don't have the cisco repo
> enabled, though.
>
> These,
> rpmfusion-free-release-28-1.noarch
> rpmfusion-nonfree-release-28-1.noarch
> installed today, so rpmfusion now has an F28 repository.  You should be
> able to install the compat-ffmpeg28 from there.
Except that you can't at the moment.  :)

That's what I was saying in my reply to Sam.  The
compat-ffmpeg28 package is not in the rpmfusion-free
repositories for f28.  This is most likely just a matter of
things needing to be synced from what was in the
rpmfusion-free-rawhide repo.

The repositories from the rpmfusion-free-release are:

https://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/releases/28/Everything/x86_64/os/
https://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/updates/28/x86_64/
https://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/updates/testing/28/x86_64/

At the moment, compat-ffmpeg28 is not present in any of
those repositories.

I mentioned it in IRC to one of the rpmfusion folks and Sam
filed a ticket in the rpmfusion bugzilla.  Odds are good
they're already working on it and will resolve it before f28
is released on Tuesday.

--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these swirling colors
distracting me?
    -- Lisa Simpson


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Sam Varshavchik
On Thu, 2018-04-26 at 21:41 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> After upgrading to Fedora 28, most of Youtube is broken in Firefox, claiming  
> lack of H.264 codec support.

I know I'm wasting my breath, but F28 is not yet released, so this is a
question for the Fedora Test list, where people who might actually be
able to influence this are to be found.

Now back to our regularly-scheduled programming.

poc
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
In reply to this post by Todd Zullinger
Todd Zullinger writes:

> Except that you can't at the moment.  :)
>
> That's what I was saying in my reply to Sam.  The
> compat-ffmpeg28 package is not in the rpmfusion-free
> repositories for f28.  This is most likely just a matter of
> things needing to be synced from what was in the
> rpmfusion-free-rawhide repo.

It seems that firefox 60 has been patched to support ffmpeg-4.0, so none of  
that would be needed, soon.



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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Todd Zullinger
Sam Varshavchik wrote:

> Todd Zullinger writes:
>
>> Except that you can't at the moment.  :)
>>
>> That's what I was saying in my reply to Sam.  The
>> compat-ffmpeg28 package is not in the rpmfusion-free
>> repositories for f28.  This is most likely just a matter of
>> things needing to be synced from what was in the
>> rpmfusion-free-rawhide repo.
>
> It seems that firefox 60 has been patched to support ffmpeg-4.0, so none of
> that would be needed, soon.
Yes, that's good to know -- for Firefox, at least.  It'll be
a week or so until that's released, if I'm reading the
Firefox release schedule properly.  I'm sure that's one of
the main use-cases, but there are others where folks might
want to use the compat-ffmpeg28 package.

That package is now in the rpmfusion-free repo for f28, on
the master rpmfusion mirror.  It should sync out to other
mirrors in the next few hours/days.  Thanks to Nicolas
Chauvet for pushing that out and to you, Sam, for filing the
ticket.  (I'll admit that I was a bit worried when I read
the replies in the rpmfusion ticket.)

I talked to a few folks in #fedora-devel on IRC today who
told me that the f28 cisco-openh264 repos are being worked
on between the Fedora release engineering team and the folks
at Cisco that handle the open264 packages.  Apparently, they
are intended to work reasonably well.

I installed the f27 packages in f28 to test and that was not
sufficient for H.264 on youtube though.  That might be the
same thing you did.  (I just changed $releasever in the
fedora-cisco-openh264 repo to 27 to install.)

Hopefully soon the proper f28 packages will be in place and
we can confirm whether they work better or not.  But at
least now there's a known-good method with compat-ffmpeg28.

--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem
of limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small
children and great nations.
    -- David Friedman


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Samuel Sieb
On 04/27/2018 01:38 PM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> I installed the f27 packages in f28 to test and that was not
> sufficient for H.264 on youtube though.  That might be the
> same thing you did.  (I just changed $releasever in the
> fedora-cisco-openh264 repo to 27 to install.)

Did you check that the plugin was enabled in Firefox?
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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
In reply to this post by Todd Zullinger
Todd Zullinger writes:

> That package is now in the rpmfusion-free repo for f28, on
> the master rpmfusion mirror.  It should sync out to other
> mirrors in the next few hours/days.  Thanks to Nicolas

Heh, so I guess I manually installed the rpmfusion rawhide repo, in order to  
get another laptop up and running today, all for nuthin' :-)

> Chauvet for pushing that out and to you, Sam, for filing the
> ticket.  (I'll admit that I was a bit worried when I read
> the replies in the rpmfusion ticket.)

Yes, that was somewhat …unexpected.

> I talked to a few folks in #fedora-devel on IRC today who
> told me that the f28 cisco-openh264 repos are being worked
> on between the Fedora release engineering team and the folks
> at Cisco that handle the open264 packages.  Apparently, they
> are intended to work reasonably well.

The Fedora wiki page that mentioned that repo states:

"This page was last edited on 10 May 2016, at 11:56."

So, I sort of presumed that the repo's been stable for a while, hence why I  
thought it was odd that dnf couldn't sync to it, now. It didn't occur to me  
that it needs a manual kick for a new release; thought it would be taken  
care of when a branch for a new release gets created.

> I installed the f27 packages in f28 to test and that was not
> sufficient for H.264 on youtube though.  That might be the
> same thing you did.  (I just changed $releasever in the
> fedora-cisco-openh264 repo to 27 to install.)

No, I went the compat-ffmpeg28 route. Even that won't be necessary when  
Firefox 60 lands, from the looks of it.


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Todd Zullinger
In reply to this post by Samuel Sieb
Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 04/27/2018 01:38 PM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>> I installed the f27 packages in f28 to test and that was
>> not sufficient for H.264 on youtube though.  That might
>> be the same thing you did.  (I just changed $releasever
>> in the fedora-cisco-openh264 repo to 27 to install.)
>
> Did you check that the plugin was enabled in Firefox?

It's set to "Always Activate."  Still doesn't work
(including restarting Firefox after toggling the "Always
activate" setting).

Whether that's because it's not built for f28 is hard to
tell.  If I remember, I'll try to check it after the proper
f28 repo is updated.  But compat-ffmpeg28 works now. :)

--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Sam Varshavchik
Todd Zullinger writes:

> Samuel Sieb wrote:
> > On 04/27/2018 01:38 PM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> >> I installed the f27 packages in f28 to test and that was
> >> not sufficient for H.264 on youtube though.  That might
> >> be the same thing you did.  (I just changed $releasever
> >> in the fedora-cisco-openh264 repo to 27 to install.)
> >
> > Did you check that the plugin was enabled in Firefox?
>
> It's set to "Always Activate."  Still doesn't work
> (including restarting Firefox after toggling the "Always
> activate" setting).
>
> Whether that's because it's not built for f28 is hard to
> tell.  If I remember, I'll try to check it after the proper
> f28 repo is updated.  But compat-ffmpeg28 works now. :)
I distinctly recall that the automatic download and install of the external  
plugin was explicitly disabled in Firefox, a year or so, ago. I was able to  
find this thread in the archives:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-November/thread.html#191178

I didn't reread the entire thread; but I recall that the outcome was that  
the downloading of that plugin has been disabled ever since.

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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Ed Greshko-2
On 04/28/18 07:42, Sam Varshavchik wrote:

> Todd Zullinger writes:
>
>> Samuel Sieb wrote:
>> > On 04/27/2018 01:38 PM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>> >> I installed the f27 packages in f28 to test and that was
>> >> not sufficient for H.264 on youtube though.  That might
>> >> be the same thing you did.  (I just changed $releasever
>> >> in the fedora-cisco-openh264 repo to 27 to install.)
>> >
>> > Did you check that the plugin was enabled in Firefox?
>>
>> It's set to "Always Activate."  Still doesn't work
>> (including restarting Firefox after toggling the "Always
>> activate" setting).
>>
>> Whether that's because it's not built for f28 is hard to
>> tell.  If I remember, I'll try to check it after the proper
>> f28 repo is updated.  But compat-ffmpeg28 works now. :)
>
> I distinctly recall that the automatic download and install of the external plugin
> was explicitly disabled in Firefox, a year or so, ago. I was able to find this
> thread in the archives:
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-November/thread.html#191178
>
> I didn't reread the entire thread; but I recall that the outcome was that the
> downloading of that plugin has been disabled ever since.
>
>
Is the plugin you're talking about really relevant?  The description of it says:

This plugin is automatically installed by Mozilla to comply with the WebRTC
specification and to enable WebRTC calls with devices that require the H.264 video codec.

It doesn't appear to me that it is involved in providing h.264 player support.


--
Conjecture is just a conclusion based on incomplete information. It isn't a fact.


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Re: H.264 video broken after updating to Fedora 28

Todd Zullinger
In reply to this post by Sam Varshavchik
Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> I distinctly recall that the automatic download and install of the external
> plugin was explicitly disabled in Firefox, a year or so, ago. I was able to
> find this thread in the archives:
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-November/thread.html#191178
>
> I didn't reread the entire thread; but I recall that the outcome was that
> the downloading of that plugin has been disabled ever since.

The fedora-cisco-openh264 repo provides that in a packaged
form, so enabling the repo and installing it gets you the
plugin binary.  After that you just need to enabled it in
the Firefox config.  That's what I did to test.

Since I installed the package for f27 on an f28 system, I
can't be positive that it didn't work with youtube because
of that or if it wouldn't work even if it was built for f28.
I don't really care enough to dig too much.  I'll try to
check it again once the f28 repos are in place.

--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now don't say you can't swear off drinking; it's easy. I've done it a
thousand times.
    -- W.C. Fields


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