The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

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The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Farhad Mohammadi Majd
The page "Mailing list guidelines"

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines

is not updated nearly 2 years, I saw few errors within it but I have not an account to fix them:

* please mention "https://paste.fedoraproject.org" specially in the sections "No attachments" and "Keep it Short", and *please change that website (paste.fedora...) title for better SEO*

* all the links in the section "No HTML Mail, Please" are DEAD!! they must replaced with archived links from http://web.archive.org or another links

THANKS
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Michal Schorm
Your wishes has been granted.

--

"all the links in the section "No HTML Mail, Please" are DEAD!!"
If you meant the 1 link from 2 in that section ... yes. :)
I used the webarchive for now.


--

Michal Schorm
Associate Software Engineer
Core Services - Databases Team
Red Hat


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> The page "Mailing list guidelines"
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>
> is not updated nearly 2 years, I saw few errors within it but I have not an account to fix them:
>
> * please mention "https://paste.fedoraproject.org" specially in the sections "No attachments" and "Keep it Short", and *please change that website (paste.fedora...) title for better SEO*
>
> * all the links in the section "No HTML Mail, Please" are DEAD!! they must replaced with archived links from http://web.archive.org or another links
>
> THANKS
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [hidden email]
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 13:22 +0100, Michal Schorm wrote:
> Your wishes has been granted.

First of all, this message violates https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mail
ing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message

Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
mailing list.

Thirdly, the link to the "Official List Archives" (under https://fedora
project.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#List_Archives) is over two
years out of date.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Samuel Sieb
On 03/01/2018 07:31 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
> mailing list.

The original sender is using yahoo and you are using gmail.

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 11:38 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 03/01/2018 07:31 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
> > mailing list.
>
> The original sender is using yahoo and you are using gmail.
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/

I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
in my spam folder.

(On a related note: I find the "new" list archive system to be a lot
less usable than the old one, but that's another topic.)

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Ed Greshko
On 03/02/18 07:23, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> in my spam folder.


I also have no record of getting the original posting, by Farhad Mohammadi Majd in my
inbox or spam.  I do have emails from that person in replies to different threads.

And, for the record, I've other instances where folks have posted directly in
HyperKitty that haven't made it to my inbox or spam.

--
A motto of mine is: When in doubt, try it out


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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Samuel Sieb
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan
On 03/01/2018 03:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> in my spam folder.

Sorry, I thought you would have seen past discussions on this topic.  If
my memory of this is correct, Yahoo has some DNS marking for anti-spam
purposes.  Gmail respects that marking and rejects mailing list email
from Yahoo addresses because it's coming from the wrong server.  For
actual technical details, search for the previous discussions on either
this list or the devel list. :-)
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Ed Greshko
On 03/02/18 08:09, Samuel Sieb wrote:

> On 03/01/2018 03:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
>> providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
>> the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
>> in my spam folder.
>
> Sorry, I thought you would have seen past discussions on this topic.  If my memory
> of this is correct, Yahoo has some DNS marking for anti-spam purposes.  Gmail
> respects that marking and rejects mailing list email from Yahoo addresses because
> it's coming from the wrong server.  For actual technical details, search for the
> previous discussions on either this list or the devel list. :-)
>
Well, that then seems to be inconsistently applied.

As I mentioned in another response I've gotten emails from Farhad Mohammadi Majd
<[hidden email]> via the list in response to other thread messages.


--
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Joe Zeff
On 03/01/2018 04:16 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Well, that then seems to be inconsistently applied.

Maybe not.  If any of it's sent through the expected server, you'll see it.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

John Pilkington
On 02/03/18 00:40, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 03/01/2018 04:16 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> Well, that then seems to be inconsistently applied.
>
> Maybe not.  If any of it's sent through the expected server, you'll see it.

I have the original post, listing HyperKitty as user agent.

The rpmfusion list has a thread (and a BZ) showing that replies to posts
on its HyperKitty are not viewable on that web page, but do arrive by
email.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Tim
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan
On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 15:31 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
> mailing list.

I saw the original message come through the list.

For what it's worth, I don't let my mail host do any spam filtering.  I
just have it auto-delete everything that didn't come from this list.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Samuel Sieb
On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 16:09 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:

> On 03/01/2018 03:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> > providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> > the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> > in my spam folder.
>
> Sorry, I thought you would have seen past discussions on this topic.  If
> my memory of this is correct, Yahoo has some DNS marking for anti-spam
> purposes.  Gmail respects that marking and rejects mailing list email
> from Yahoo addresses because it's coming from the wrong server.  For
> actual technical details, search for the previous discussions on either
> this list or the devel list. :-)

I did speed-read those posts at the time, but clearly misunderstood
what they were about. I hadn't realised the problem affects list mail.
That's just astonishing.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Ed Greshko
On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 08:09 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:

> On 03/02/18 07:23, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> > providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> > the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> > in my spam folder.
>
>
> I also have no record of getting the original posting, by Farhad Mohammadi Majd in my
> inbox or spam.  I do have emails from that person in replies to different threads.
>
> And, for the record, I've other instances where folks have posted directly in
> HyperKitty that haven't made it to my inbox or spam.

<rant>
Is anyone else find HyperKitty annoying? What is the point of all that
white space? The old system seemed perfectly functional to me. Is it
worth it to enable posting via the web page, with the attendant bugs?
Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
specifically a HK problem but still).
</rant>

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Matthew Miller-2
On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:00:14PM +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
> list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
> specifically a HK problem but still).


They do -- it's just in the header. For example:

Archived-At: <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/JIHWMMZ3YTPMQSXRZPZSAQ7ESKMVLJT5/>

This is one of the nice things about the new setup, for what it's
worth. The old archiver did not have persistent links to individual
messages. (If we had to remove one from the archive for privacy law or
other legal reasons, _all newer messages that month_ shifted in number,
making any links to them wrong.) This link is persistent and generated
when the mail is sent.

--
Matthew Miller
<[hidden email]>
Fedora Project Leader
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 10:49 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:00:14PM +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
> > list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
> > specifically a HK problem but still).
>
>
> They do -- it's just in the header. For example:
>
> Archived-At: <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/JIHWMMZ3YTPMQSXRZPZSAQ7ESKMVLJT5/>
>
> This is one of the nice things about the new setup, for what it's
> worth. The old archiver did not have persistent links to individual
> messages. (If we had to remove one from the archive for privacy law or
> other legal reasons, _all newer messages that month_ shifted in number,
> making any links to them wrong.) This link is persistent and generated
> when the mail is sent.

So a hidden link which is not clickable. However I wasn't in fact
talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
the mailto: link which is actually there.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Kevin Fenzi
On 03/02/2018 08:21 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 10:49 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:00:14PM +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>> Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
>>> list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
>>> specifically a HK problem but still).
>>
>>
>> They do -- it's just in the header. For example:
>>
>> Archived-At: <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/JIHWMMZ3YTPMQSXRZPZSAQ7ESKMVLJT5/>
>>
>> This is one of the nice things about the new setup, for what it's
>> worth. The old archiver did not have persistent links to individual
>> messages. (If we had to remove one from the archive for privacy law or
>> other legal reasons, _all newer messages that month_ shifted in number,
>> making any links to them wrong.) This link is persistent and generated
>> when the mail is sent.
>
> So a hidden link which is not clickable. However I wasn't in fact
> talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> the mailto: link which is actually there.
They are all in the headers:

List-Id: Community support for Fedora users <users.lists.fedoraproject.org>
Archived-At:
<https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/PCWR2Q5AEH66HSRHCI7MBF77APHBQDY3/>
List-Archive:
<https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../>
List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>

Depending on your mail client it may or may not show them somehow
outside that.

kevin


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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Tim
On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 11:08 -0800, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> They are all in the headers:
>
> List-Id: Community support for Fedora users <users.lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Archived-At: <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/PCWR2Q5AEH66HSRHCI7MBF77APHBQDY3/>
> List-Archive: <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../>
> ...[snip]...
>
> Depending on your mail client it may or may not show them somehow
> outside that.

Essentially, hidden, and unusable to a lot of people.  Since they're
not visible, most people won't even know about them to go looking for
them, there.  Many people will not be able to do anything with them,
even if they can find them.

Don't expect anything other than software to make use of mail headers.
The mail headers are for programs to use, not people.

And it doesn't save any bandwidth by taking things out of the message
body and stuffing them into the header.  At the very least, there ought
to be one web address in the message footer that lets a person manage
their mail subscription (an address that takes them to a page where
they can subscribe, access the archives, etc., like the messages used
to have).

--
 
[tim@localhost ~] -rsvp
Linux 4.13.16-100.fc25.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Nov 27 19:52:46 UTC 2017 x86_64
 
Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is
no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see the messages
posted to the mailing list.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Kevin Fenzi
On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 11:08 -0800, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

> > So a hidden link which is not clickable. However I wasn't in fact
> > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> > in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> > or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> > one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> > the mailto: link which is actually there.
>
> They are all in the headers:
>
> List-Id: Community support for Fedora users <users.lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Archived-At:
> <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../message/PCWR2Q5AEH66HSRHCI7MBF77APHBQDY3/>
> List-Archive:
> <https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@.../>
> List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help>
> List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> Depending on your mail client it may or may not show them somehow
> outside that.

Those are RFC2368-compliant headers which do not include the list info
page I mentioned. Since the previous system did include that in the
standard footer (which was thus visible to *every* mail client) I'm
wondering why it was removed. Instead there is a redundant URL for
posting to the list, which merely repeats information that's already in
the To: header.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Matthew Miller-2
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan
On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> the mailto: link which is actually there.

Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.

--
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<[hidden email]>
Fedora Project Leader
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sun, 2018-03-04 at 08:57 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> > in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> > or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> > one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> > the mailto: link which is actually there.
>
> Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.

If you can influence that, thanks.

poc
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